As the Marvel Cinematic Universe’s Multiverse Saga enters its twilight years, one of the stronger entries that will likely continue to be fondly remembered as one of the better stories isThe Falcon and the Winter Soldier. TheAnthony MackieandSebastian Stan-led series not only takes a deep dive into the impact thatAvengers: Infinity WarandAvengers: Endgamehad on the MCU, but it also introduces a few new characters who have since become fan favorites. One of those characters isCarl Lumbly’s Isaiah Bradley — an attempt to replicate Captain America (Chris Evans) that ended in tragedy, bigotry, and abuse.
Isaiah’s powerful story makes it easy to understand why Marvel decided to bring back the character forCaptain America: Brave New World, which picks up whereThe Falcon and the Winter Soldierleft off. While it’s not a perfect Marvel film, easily one of the fourthCaptain Americafilm’s most significant highlights isCarl Lumbly’s performance. As a longtime player in the DC Universe and the many works ofMike Flanagan, Lumbly has been enjoying a well-deserved career resurgence with a remarkable dedication to his craft in every part.
In an exclusive conversation with us here at Collider, Carl Lumbly opened up not just about his most iconic characters but also what they mean and represent to him.
“It Was a Joy To Revisit Isaiah Again” in ‘Captain America: Brave New World’
“He has a sense of love.”
COLLIDER: When I went intoCaptain America: Brave New World, I went in with the expectations I usually go in with Marvel movies where I think my favorite part is going to be the crazy action or the funny jokes, but similar toThe Falcon and the Winter Soldier, by far one of my favorite parts of the movie was your performance as Isaiah Bradley. [He] is such a refreshingly nuanced character for the Marvel Universe. What was it like to revisit that character for the new movie after playing him in the original Disney+ show?
CARL LUMBLY: It was a joy to revisit Isaiah again. Once I didThe Falcon and the Winter Soldier, Isaiah kind of stayed with me. I didn’t know if he would ever be in anything again, but he’ll always be in me.
Perfect, because Isaiah is such an expansive character. What would you say was one of the biggest challenges of playing him, either inCaptain Americaor inThe Falcon?
LUMBLY: One of the biggest challenges, or the task I set for myself, was to try and understand someone just coming out into the world as we know it now, whose last real experience of the world was the early 1940s. In his youth, just before he went off, he married and had a wife who was pregnant. He left her, and then he went into a world that was unrecognizable. First the world war, the world of the military, and then imprisonment. So, when we discovered him inThe Falcon and the Winter Soldier, this is a man who has found the tiniest corner in the world he can find, and he’s just trying to stay right there, to stay out of the way. Every time he’s lifted his head, something has knocked him down.
My anchor for Isaiah is the experience of so many people—Black people, dispossessed people, immigrants—in this country who have had that experience of having their expectations dashed about the application of the principles of equality in this nation, in this republic, but are still in love with the principles, and moving forward with that in mind. He lost track of that, and it’s Sam Wilson who gives it back to him. It’s Sam Wilson, who is this Black man with agency in a world where you’re able to strap something on and fly. His world was the Tuskegee Airmen. His world was the idea espoused on the shield that he created when he went into battle. It was a double V: victory at home and abroad. So, the idea that he lives in a world where now people are able to contribute in the way he wished he had been able to contribute—yes, he’s got serum in his blood, and he’s really strong, but he was denied.
When the juice is the sweetest, that’s the time to move, and he was on the move. He was there. Now, with what happens, he’s cautious about this new world, andyou have to be brave in this new world because this new world is wild. But the one thing you can cling to is he has a sense of love, a love for Faith, his late wife, and love for Sam Wilson and those like him who might not have the same experience that he has, so they don’t have the same fears. They say fear is the mind-killer. So, we find Isaiah, I think, a little smarter when this begins, and despite what takes place, he leaves, and that little piece of his heart is still intact.
That is extremely, extremely well put, and you’re absolutely right. He touches on so many real-world themes and issues, such as living with PTSD and institutionalized racism. It seems when it comes to especially popular movies likeCaptain America: Brave New World, there is a vocal minority of some people who seem to think that politics has no place in storytelling or everything is given this blanket term of “woke” for anything that doesn’t align with someone’s particular views. Do you think that’s something that’s carried across within the film industry, or do you think that’s something we’re starting to move past? As you and I, I’m sure, both know, movies and TV shows have always had some sort of theme or message that says something about our real world.
Whenever it seems like a group of the dispossessed are making progress toward the promise of the Republic, certain elements of the Republic recoil. It goes as far as the assassination of leaders to the increased policing of “proper and acceptable” ways of behavior for those groups within the greater society. I think what I’ve seen in, I’ll say, the past decade has been that recoil. I am so happy and proud to have lived to have seen a Black president in President Obama, and not only a Black president, but, in my view, someone who faced all of those challenges and said, “Yes, that’s beside the point,” that he had a job to do, that he could not afford to indulge in honoring those perspectives. I think we’re at another point where you have to decide which perspectives you wish to honor.
I personally believe that the ideals that my parents came to this country for are still ideals thatIbelieve in, and I’ve held them the way you hold onto things. There are other people who have held onto different kinds of ideals because they were raised in a different way. I think in every way possible, they’re becoming more and more the minority, and as that takes place, the fear is that what will be done to them when they are in the minority is what happens to minorities. I think there’s another paradigm that’s available, and I think that’s going to be proven. Now, it may be a rough go, but that’s where I hold my faith.
Lumbly Gives a Nuanced Answer About an Isaiah Bradley Spin-Off
“I’m not living in my trauma. I’m living in my joy.”
Circling back to Isaiah, as we all know, Marvel loves their spin-offs. They love their sequels. with Isaiah, it’s almost giving me a bit of a conundrum because, on one hand, I love this character, I love his story, I want to see more of him, and I want to see more of that story. But at the same time, that story is so deeply rooted in trauma, and so I feel like if there were to be a spin-off of him, it would have to be so much darker and more mature than anything Marvel’s done before. I’d be fascinated to hear your thoughts. Do you think Isaiah would be a good candidate for a spin-off movie or show for Marvel, or do you think he’s better off where he is right now?
LUMBLY: Let me answer your question this way. If I chose, I could tell you that you are looking at someone who has had a tremendous amount of trauma brought into his life because of this disgusting practice of racism that we have not let go of in this country—but that’s not where you live.I’m not living in my trauma. I’m living in my joy.My trauma is there with me, and from time to time, its voice is much, much louder, but what guides me is what I know. I know across the board, without regard to color or gender preference, place of original origin, I have encountered some of the most amazing people in the world, and I have also encountered some people who need some help. That’s how I’ve come to view it. Someone who I admire very much said that—and I’m paraphrasing— “hatred only serves to destroy those who hate.” If you carry it, not if you’re the recipient of it, because you can learn to deal with that, but if youcarryit, it will eat you up. So, I feel compassion for people who carry that much hatred. I don’t. I carry love.
That particle that I spoke about in Isaiah’s heart, again, quantitatively, it doesn’t matter how large it is. If you have a piece of that, you have an understanding of the totality of it. That’s what I think Isaiah has a chance to recapture totally. I think that’s what Sam and seeing a Captain America who comes—even though he teases him about it—from social work, that’s a noble aspiration for a superhero.
‘The Falcon and the Winter Soldier’: Who Is Isaiah Bradley? Meet Marvel’s Fabled “Black Captain America”
‘The Falcon and the Winter Soldier’ dropped by to see one of the best obscure Marvel characters of all time.
How Carl Lumbly Transformed Into Dick Hallorann for ‘Doctor Sleep’
Lumbly says his conversation with Mike Flanagan was “one of the best” he’s ever had.
Stepping away from Marvel for a little bit, you have frequently worked with Mike Flanagan, the first time of which was withDoctor Sleep, where you played a character from the originalThe Shining, Dick Hallorann. It was a performance that was so good that I had to look up if Scatman Crothers was still alive, because I thought I was watching him on screen. That’s how convincing it was. What was the process like preparing for that character? The idea of making a sequel to Stanley Kubrick’sThe Shiningis already a daunting, seemingly impossible task that somehow you and Mike accomplished. What was your process like when getting into character for that particular role?
LUMBLY: I would say the first part of the process was about an hour and 20 initial meeting with Mike and I. I think Mike is brilliant, and when you work with him, he seems to think, even if you’re not brilliant, that you at least understand what he’s saying, that there’s something about the fact that he cast you to play that character that he felt like he could trust you. So in that first hour and 15-minute conversation, we went through a lot of things, some related to the film, some related to Scatman, some related to how daunting it is to think about doing this, but just a lot related to life and death, almost across the board. It was one of the best conversations I’ve ever had. It was free, and it was easy.
That was part of what I think Scatman brought to the character that I wanted to pick up on. This knowledge, this realm in which he now walks, that he had entry to early in his life, this ability to see past where we are now to where we all go or where we all come from, is a responsibility. It’s a joy. Yes, it’s a burden, but if you can carry a burden, that’s joyful. That’s how strong you are. So, that was part of the preparation.
Of course, watching The Shining was part of the preparation, which I don’t consider myself a scary movie person, so a lot of the spectacle withThe Shiningwas just mind-numbing to me. I felt like I couldn’t think.Doctor Sleep, as carrying that little boy, Danny, who Hallorann first saw and saw the magnitude of what he could see, but also knew what was coming when you have that much, that was another part of the anchor for me, and to bring what ease Hallorann could bring to somebody who was vulnerable to these insights.
‘Doctor Sleep’ Works Because Mike Flanagan Put His Own Spin on Stephen King
‘Doctor Sleep’ is its own sick, arresting spectacle.
Amazing. Not only does it expand on a character who kind of got screwed over a little bit in the originalShiningbecause you think he’s going to come in and save the day, and then in comes Jack around the corner, but also, I’m not sure if you’d agree with this, but I do know you have a huge background in voice acting, and this is a subject that’s been tied to it, but the performance is one of the greatest testaments to why human performances are so authentic and can be so convincing. We’re living in the age of deepfakes and AI and de-aging, but that performance is so convincing. I’m not sure if you’d agree, though, if that’s one of the prime examples for the argument against AI replacing acting.
LUMBLY: I would say that I don’t believe AI can replace acting in the same way, probably, that I used to love synthesized music, but I have never heard anything that sounds like a Miles Davis trumpet. I think there are limits. And I think, maybe, AI will be the test for humanity. Maybe my great-grandchildren will have the ability to hear a deepfake, and they’ll immediately be able to see, “Oh my gosh, that’s not even a good one.” And maybe what is human will have to grow to compete with AI. So, that I find kind of exciting. If gathering and sort of checking your humanity with another human periodically is going to be necessary in order to be able to… But it may change, in some ways, what we think of as entertainment. Films that I love so much may go the way of the novel. I’m not sure how many novel readers there are right now in the world, but I know anybody whoisa novel reader knows you can’t touch that. You can’t because that is the book you have in your own mind that you’re reading. So, I think any film, what you take away isyourfilm.
It’s why I love stage, because each night it’s different. And whoever’s in the audience that night, that’s the play they have taken away with them. I think that’s why I love stage almost more than anything because you have to be present because the audience is there with you. I love camera work. I love the idea that sometimes when you mess up, someone’s eye can see it, and, “We’ll just cut that, and we’ll try that again.” That’s been quite lovely. [Laughs] But I also like the fact that on the day, in the moment, that’s what you brought, and whoever sees it, that’s what they capture. To me, that’s like an honest conversation.
Carl Lumbly Teases the Unique Tone of ‘The Life of Chuck’
Going back to Mike, you’ve worked with him a number of times. Once again withFall of the House of Usher, where you played one of the few morally good people in a show that’s all about a bunch of people getting their comeuppance. You also worked on maybe Mike’s biggest and most ambitious project yet,The Life of Chuck, which boasts an incredible ensemble cast, yourself included. if you’re able to share, how does it differ, if in any way, from Mike’s previous projects? What we’ve heard so far is that it really plays a lot with genre. Even though you would expect a story made by Mike Flanagan, written by Stephen King, to be specifically a horror one, it sounds like this one might be a little bit different.
LUMBLY: What I get from Mike, in addition to his brilliance, is he’s just a decent human being. He’s a husband, he’s a father. When you’re on his set, you feel like you’re really being regarded and being well taken care of. There’s a kind of tidiness to the way he approaches life, but I think in order to have that tidiness, you have to be willing to let things be mussed and scattered, and then when it’s time to work, you bring it in. So, I would sayThe Life of Chuckis an opportunity for Mike to expand on what he has. Because I think part of what makes horror work is the fact that it hits you in the heart, and I think this is Mike taking hearts and allowing people to open their hearts to the beauty of the totality of this life that we live through this wonderful short story that Stephen King wrote,The Life of Chuck.
I’m saying all of this with an uneducated eye, and I have not yet seen the film, but I know from the script, from the short story, from the conversation, and from the way all of us in the cast seem to have the same expression on our face, just kind of a wonderment and joy and surprise and mystery because it all is a mystery. So, I can’t wait to see how he realized it. I have nothing but the utmost respect for him, and I’m so proud to be in a cast like this.
Amazing. “Wonder” and “joy” are definitely not the the adjectives you think of for a horror movie, so that definitely makes it intriguing.
Despite His Marvel Role, Carl Lumbly Still Has Great Love for the DC Universe
We also know what Mike is working on after that. He is joining the DC Universe, of all things, and he’s writing a Clayface movie. The DC Universe is a world that I think a lot of people may not know you’reveryfamiliar with. Long before Isaiah Bradley in Marvel, you were Martian Manhunter in many animated DC projects. In fact, when I was doing my research for this, you are actually in more episodes of the originalJustice Leagueshow than anyone else. So, that gives you bragging rights over your cast members if you want those.
LUMBLY: [Laughs] That’s what happens when you play a character who can discorporate and walk through people’s minds.
Exactly! And that’s what makes the upcoming Clayface movie so funny because Clayface is a character that can shapeshift and transform into anything he wants, and that’s very similar to Martian Manhunter. So, where I’m going with this is I know you’ve played Martian Manhunter many times. You’ve also played people who are adjacent to Martian Manhunter, as in, withSupergirl, you played that character’s father. Do you think that there is a world where, if you were invited to come back to the DC Universe in any capacity, whether it be Clayface or something completely different, that’s something you’d be open to?
LUMBLY: Always. I’ll be honest, generally, if I like a character or if I like the text, if I like the language of the piece, and, it might sound shallow, but perhaps if they have interesting wardrobe ideas, I am there! I love doing this. I feel, in some ways, like Isaiah feels—that I represent people who can’t be here, who are equally talented or more talented than I am, but for one reason or another, they didn’t get some of the opportunities that I got. So, when I work, that’s in my mind. I have to hold that, and I have a responsibility to them.
You can see Carl Lumbly’s latest performance inCaptain America: Brave New World, which is in theaters now.
Captain America: Brave New World
Captain America: Brave New World follows Sam Wilson as he steps into his role as the new Captain America. Navigating the complexities of geopolitics, Sam encounters an international incident involving a mysterious global plot. As tensions rise, he must uncover the mastermind behind the scheme to prevent worldwide chaos.
