[Editor’s note: The following containsspoilersforThem.]
From creatorLittle Marvin, the first season of the Amazon Studios original anthology seriesThemis set in the 1950s during The Great Migration when a Black family — Lucky (Deborah Ayorinde) and Henry Emory (Ashley Thomas) and their two daughters, Ruby (Shahadi Wright Joseph) and Gracie (Melody Hurd) – move from the South into the all-white neighborhood of Compton. While otherworldly malevolent forces threaten the family, it is the actions of their next-door neighbors who will go to any lengths to protect their way of life as they know it that are far more dangerous.
During this 1-on-1 phone interview with Collider, Ayorinde talked about being blown away by Little Marvin’s poetic writing, playing a character with so much intention, how hard it was to get through shooting Episode 5, the dynamic between Lucky and Betty (Alison Pill), what most impressed her about the young co-stars who played her daughters, her reaction to the end of the season, and what’s up next for her.
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COLLIDER: When this initially came your way, what was the pitch for it? Before you got to actually read any of it, what were you told about it and what did they say the show was going to be?
This story is terrifying, it’s horrific, it’s heartbreaking and it’s important, but it’s really not easy to watch. Were you fully aware of what you were getting yourself into, emotionally and physically, by signing on to do this?
AYORINDE: I don’t think anyone can be. I don’t think one can truly prepare for the journey, to be honest with you. I was aware of the hardest scene that I have ever had to do to date, which is the scene in Episode 5, where Lucky is attacked and raped and her child is brutally murdered right in front of her. I was aware of that scene, very early on, so the minute that I was cast, I started preparing for that scene. I knew that it would require every single bit of me and then some. But even with all of my preparation, when we got to the day, there was no amount that was enough. I just had to dive in. And that was very truthful. Anyone who goes through that, there’s no way that you can actually prepare yourself for a moment like that. I’m still affected by that scene, to be honest with you.
There’s so much identifiably racist imagery in this, with the behavior and the language, whether it’s the use of the N-word, the references to apes, or the Blackface imagery. What did you find most difficult to deal with on a personal level?
AYORINDE: For me, the scene in Episode 5 was the hardest scene for me to do, as a Black woman. That’s when you really see the horror of racism and sexism collide in such an ugly way. For Lucky, that moment isn’t just about racism, it’s also about sexism. That was just the hardest thing for me to do because, as a Black woman, a lot of people don’t necessarily understand the fact that most Black women are fighting against those two evils, and not just one. I also felt honored to be able to show that in such a raw way. When you’re talking to us about racism, you need to also talk about sexism because we don’t have the luxury of choosing one fight over the other. I just felt honored to play Lucky and to portray that moment. As hard as it was, I felt honored to be able to portray that moment.
This is a story that’s less about the otherworldly malevolent forces and more about the danger that’s right next door to you. What was it like to play out that dynamic with the neighbors, especially the relationship between Lucky and Betty?
AYORINDE: Something that I’ve discovered in my career is that the people who play the worst characters are usually the nicest people in real life. I don’t know why that is, but honestly they’re just the nicest people. When we suited up and we got in character, we were not ourselves. I think this just speaks to women of that day anyway, but it takes so much to just get dressed, becoming Lucky or in her case becoming Betty, that when I looked at her in costume, I didn’t see Alison [Pill], I saw Betty. It wasn’t hard. The funny thing is that the malevolent forces have nothing on the real people. The real people are actually way scarier than the supernatural entities. That is the thing that I found to be so interesting. This is the first horror that I’ve done and I thought to myself that I would be way more scared of the supernatural entities, but I was actually more disturbed and terrified of the actual people and the evil that they were actually doing.
The supernatural force is never as scary to me as the perfectly normal person that does horrific things.
AYORINDE: My theory on that is because when you interact with people every day, there’s an expectation that we’re human, right? Yeah, we’re different in unique ways, but we’re human. When you see things like this, you become aware of how evil people can be, if they allow that need of evilness in their heart, and it makes you terrified of the people that you interact with every single day. It makes you terrified of your doctor, or the shopkeeper, or the person teaching your child. It makes you terrified and you just really think about the heart space that people are in. For me, that was what made them more terrifying. At the end of the day, you’re supposed to be human. That’s why it’s so disturbing.
What was it like to do the scene where you’re standing in the street with all of the neighbors and you’re screaming? Is that cathartic at all?
AYORINDE: It was actually horrifying, but also weirdly cathartic. You have to think about how much we experience that in real life, and we swallow it and we bury it and we show up, and we show up, and we show up, and we bury it, and we show up. The microaggressions that we experience, and the racism, the sexism, the colorism, and all of the -isms, we experience it and we show up. For me, I feel like playing Lucky gave me the opportunity to go there and to uncover all of those things that I buried from those experiences and just let it out. What I love about this project and this role is that I had full permission to be as sad, as angry, as unraveled, as I needed to be. Lucky had full permission. It was cathartic, in that way. It really was.
So much is required of the two young girls in this that play your daughters. What did you find most remarkable about working with Shahadi Wright Joseph and Melody Hurd?
AYORINDE: It’s funny because I needed them more than they needed me, I realized. Ashley [Thomas] and I would have to do this heavy scene, and they’d be in the back, doing TikTok videos and dancing. It was just so refreshing to see them just bask in their innocence. But it was also heartbreaking because I knew that there’s only so much protecting that me or their parents could do from the things that were happening on the show. They weren’t gonna experience it on this set, but they were gonna experience some form of it in their life. That was the most hard. They are so remarkable. They processed everything so well. They’re so smart, especially Melody. We didn’t tell her much, but she picked up on a lot, just by way of her just being so intelligent. The chemistry and the family connection that you see is not made up, at all. I love those girls so much.
Once you learned about how this season would end, where everything was leading, and how it would all end up, what was your reaction? What most struck you about the ending for this season?
AYORINDE: Throughout the process the writers were toying with what would be the ending of the story for awhile. We had certain discussions about, “How do we wrap this up?” So, when I finally got the final script, first of all, I felt this sense of, “Wow, this wild ride is actually coming to an end,” but also, I felt like it was very honest. I felt like maybe it still gives the Emorys some sort of dignity. Most people know exactly what’s gonna happen next, based on what’s happened so many times in the past and based on what happens today, even. Not showing that, and showing them standing together strong, no longer running, it’s sad, but it made sense for me, why it would end that way and why it wouldn’t end with them showing what could happen next to all of them. It shows that a lot of people in the past that have experienced exactly what this family experienced didn’t die in vain.
How do you find the next thing you want to do after doing something like this? Do you start trying to seek out a light comedy to do?
AYORINDE: It’s so funny, I love my reps so much because they actually see me as a human first and an actor second. We actually had a lot of these conversations that went, “So, comedy next?” What do you need to do?” I feel like I’ve been removed from theThemworld for enough time where, if the next project I do is weighty, I think I could handle it. Now, if it was just right back to that, I don’t know that I will be able to handle it. I think I would need a moment. But as far as what happens next, I feel very empowered to do projects that mean something, whether it’s a comedy, whether it’s horror, whether it’s drama. I just always wanna do projects that mean something and that are truthful. And I don’t wanna do any project that doesn’t portray Black women in an honest, truthful light. I want them to be shown as layered, and I want them to be shown as beautiful and perfect and smart and strong, and all of the things we are. I just wanna continue playing roles that are layered and truthful.
Are you currently trying to find that?
AYORINDE: Right now, I’m working on a show on Apple TV calledTruth Be Told, with Octavia Spencer. It’s a character that’s completely different from anything I’ve played before, and I do that on purpose. I think if you look at my body of work, all my characters are very different from each other on purpose to show that I, as a Black woman, can really be anything. I won’t say much, but my character on the show is completely different from Lucky and completely different from me. I’m having a lot of fun.
Themis available to stream at Amazon Prime Video.
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